the following post is in response to this post:
https://theorangemailmanmyblog.wordpress.com/2020/09/14/7-pretrib-problems-and-the-prewrath-rapture-full-movie/
Hey Major TOM … thanks for the summary and link – I did watch the video – comments below
TOM> video which support the PreWrath Rapture position and exposes the problems with the Pre-Tribulational Rapture position.
rapazoe> now just need a video exposing the problems with PreWrath Rapture
1. problem of flipping Matt 24: 29,30,31 (DOL, parousia, rapture)
to read 31,30,29 (rapture, parousia, DOL)
This is more than a problem … it is a great offense to the alter the Word of God in this way … it is a great sin to mangle the Word of God.
2. problem interpreting “cut short” that PreWrath interprets as meaning number of day …. when it should really be interpreted “those days” the program of Satan’s holocaust
TOM> Keep in mind this is only a summary which will not do the video justice.
rapazoe> Good job with your summary … I actually prefer it to the video … need time to ponder what is being proposed.
TOM> I. The first problem is called the Precursor Problem.
When does the wrath of God begin?
rapazoe> 7th seal – easy peasy
TOM> When does the Day of the LORD begin?
rapazoe> 6th seal & Matt 24:29 … no problem … easy peasy
TOM> There are at least 4 events that will occur before the Day of the LORD.
TOM> Pretrib believes that the rapture is imminent with no prophetic events occurring before the rapture of the church which
rapazoe> all Matt 24: 1-28 & all seals 1-5 all take place before DOL
TOM> they believe will happen in conjunction with the Day of the LORD.
rapazoe> they are actually correct – the rapture occurs in verse 31 which is already into the Day of the Lord. The cause of most of the problems with pre-trib is that they confuse the Tribulation of Satan with the Wrath of God. If they could just unfuse these events some of their ideas would survive.
The great insight of pre-wrath is the un-fusing of the tribulation of Satan & the Wrath of God.
The tribulation of Satan occurs at the end of this present age.
The wrath of God occurs at the beginning of the Day of the Lord right after the rapture in vs 24:31
TOM>
1. Elijah will be sent before the Day of the LORD, Malachi 4:5.
2. A rebellion or apostasy will occur, II Thessalonians 2:2.
3. The man of lawlessness will be revealed, II Thessalonians 2:2-3.
4. The cosmic disturbances will be given as a sign before the Day of the LORD, Joel 2:31.
rapazoe> YES 1.2.3 …. but 4. NO … NOT before ! … this IS the sign of the beginning of the DOL
DOL begins at verse Matt 24:29 … Jesus is very clear on this point
TOM>
A common response by pretribbers presented throughout the video is that there must be 2 different Days of the LORD,
rapazoe>
the DOL has different parts … but all happen in the 1000 year Day of the Lord
The DOL and Jesus is introduced in Matt 24:29-31 & 6th seal
The DOL wrath of God follows at Seal 7.
The DOL kingdom of God begins after the 7th seal wrath & Armageddon
TOM>
II. The Olivet Discourse Problem. The rapture is described in Matthew 24:30-31. There are many signs that happen before the rapture which are recorded in Matthew 24:1-28.
rapazoe>
OK call them signs … All Matt 24:1-28 are the sequence of events leading up to the DOL at verse Matt 24:29. …. AND … very happy to see you got the order correct … Matthew 24:30-31 … pre-wrath reverses the order that Jesus laid down in Olivet discourse … a fundamental problem. TOM you are a pre-wrath heretic !!!
TOM>
There is an insistence among pretribbers that the Olivet Discourse does not concern the church at all.
rapazoe>
clearly a false pretrib concept … among sooooooooo many
I watched one youtube video where the pre-tribber claimed that none of the gospel teachings were for the church but rather the Jews. They claim that Paul’s teachings are for the church. weird or what !
TOM>
III. The 2nd Thessalonians Problem.
rapazoe>
Yes it is a big problem for pre-trib imminence.
TOM>
Some pretribulationalists respond by teaching that the apostasia is the rapture.
rapazoe>
pre-tribbers need to inject a rapture before the tribulation to support their fundamental false concept. … just all wrong … so sad.
TOM>
IV. The Revelation Problem. The seals are the result of antichrist’s working, not the wrath of God.
rapazoe>
YES … just more pre-trib nonsense. … try not to read anything pre-trib …
TOM>
An examination of the sixth seal shows a precursor to the Day of the LORD by way of cosmic disturbance. The wrath of God in the Day of the LORD has not yet occurred as of the sixth seal since it is a specific sign portending the Day of the LORD and His wrath.
rapazoe>
The 6th seal IS the beginning of the DOL & aligns perfectly with Matt 24:29
The confusion here TOM is that you are assuming that the DOL is only wrath.
That is a false idea … there are phases to the DOL … rapture, wrath, kingdom
The DOL begins at Math 24:29 with an introduction of Jesus parousia and then the rapture of the saints all happening very quickly … mayb all at the same time … . The DOL continues with phase 2 … the wrath of God. Matt 24 does not record the wrath of God because the church is gone at verse 31 and not subject to wrath. Proof that the olivet discourse is for the church.
TOM>
But there is a true parallel with the sixth seal and the coming of Christ in Matthew 24:29-31.
rapazoe>
YES ! … just accept that whatever events happen before Matt 24:29 and Rev 6:12 are pre-DOL.
TOM>
The multitude in Revelation 7:9-17 is describing the church coming out of the great tribulation.
rapazoe>
YES … equivalent to Matt 24: 29-31 the rapture happens at this point after or at the parousia of Jesus and just before the wrath of God. Truly pre-wrath in a scriptural sense.
TOM>
V. The Imminence Problem. This is a keystone for the pretrib position.
rapazoe>
Yes a problem … just more & more pretrib nonsense piling up.
TOM>
Another set of scriptures which are used to teach imminence are called “be good because Jesus is returning”. The fear of being caught in the act of sinning because of the return of Jesus is taught as essential to the Christian faith. This seems to be a deficient view of discipleship. Instead, Christians should live godly lives in light of the fact that they have been given eternal life. This is based on Christ’s work instead of our own.
rapazoe>
I agree TOM … The video mentions the doctrine of “sanctification” can only be supported by an imminent fear of the return of the Lord. Strange … considering that many or most pre-tribbers are baptist who believe in eternal security. … Just mooooooooooooooore nonsense.
TOM>
Another category is that “Christians will not go through the wrath”. This of course does not equal imminence, but serves as proof of a prewrath rapture. Another set of scriptures trying (desperately) to prove imminence is “the rapture is a good thing”.
rapazoe>
The rapture IS a good thing … the best thing … it is our SALVATION … to be delivered from the tribulation of Satan in this present age and then also delivered from the wrath of God in the next DOL age.
Rom 5:8-9 But God commends his own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we will be saved from God’s wrath through him.
TOM>
“the nearness texts”. The meaning of near in these verses is relative because of the fact that these verses were written almost 2,000 years ago. James 5:7-9, instead of insisting on nearness, is really teaching patience in light of Christ’s coming. The video parallels this with Matthew 24:32-35 which contains the same language and insists on “all these things” (meaning signs of Christ’s coming) occurring before that. The definition of near cannot mean any-moment.
rapazoe>
WOW ! … I have been just looking into this word “near”.
because I have the same question … 2,000 years ago is not near in time so what does it mean ??? Two thoughts …
1. near as in relationship … ie kinsman redeemer
sometimes we use the word … akin which also means near … a “kin” person is a “near” person
2. near as in “in the hand” – a certain thing … ” a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush” … not “at hand” soon but “in hand” its for certain a 100% sure thing.
TOM>
This is also referring to unbelievers who will be unprepared and be caught like a thief, while believers who are prepared will not be surprised like a thief, see I Thessalonians 5:1-11 in context. If you tell someone to watch, there is something that they must be watching for.
rapazoe>
1Th 5:4 But you, brothers, aren’t in darkness, that the day should overtake you like a thief.
TOM>
VI. The Church and Israel Problem.
rapazoe>
Yes a problem … introduced by pre-trib dispensationalism.
Just ignore it and hope it goes away …
What about this … !
Rev 7:4 I heard the number of those who were sealed, one hundred forty-four thousand, sealed out of every tribe of the children of Israel:
Israel is mentioned in Revelation at the introduction of the DOL and at the time of the rapture … BUT … the parallel in Matt 24 does not mention Israel.
Meaning the Olivet discourse is not for Israel … but for the church.
TOM>
VII. The Early Church Problem. The writings of the early church pose a seriously problem for the pretrib rapture.
rapazoe>
YES … a pre-trib rapture cannot be found there. … surprised ! … NO
TOM>
Prewrath scholars appear giving interview type answers to common questions regarding the timing of the rapture according to a plain sense reading of scripture.
rapazoe>
“plain sense reading of scripture” … NOT so fast … pre-wrath needs to explain how they can live with Van Kampen’s mutilation of scripture.
Robert Van Kampen wrote in his book “the sign” – page 281
Van Kampen>
“It is interesting to note that the disciples asked their questions in the specific order that these event will occur – first Christ will return, and then God will pour out judgment at “the end of the age.”
Likewise, in Matthew 24:4-29 Christ answers these questions in the order asked by the disciples.
rapazoe>
Yes the disciples ask Jesus to explain the order of events and Jesus does just that in the Olivet discourse including Matt 29-31.
Van Kampen>
But in verse 30 Christ makes it clear that the sign will occur in the reverse sequence of the events: that is, the sign of the end of the age actually precedes the sign of Christ’s coming.
rapazoe>
NO! – false statement – Christ did not make it clear in vs30 or anywhere else that the sequence is reversed … just a false concept introduced by Van Kampen. … why ? because pre-wrath wants to adopt the pre-trib idea of immanence into the pre-wrath system. Read parousia magazine edition 6 and see that the pre-wrath system was developed to “harmonize” pre-trib” and “post-trib”.
Pre-wrath was developed in the shadow of pre-trib … thats why it is problematic.
Van Kampen>
It is essential to understand the order of this sequence according to the way Christ taught that this will occur, that the sign of the end of the age will actually precede the sign of His coming,
rapazoe>
Yes – sign of the end of the age Matt 24: 27-28 does precede the sign of His coming DOL … Matt 24: 29,30,31 … so what! The end of this present age occurs at the beginning of the DOL age – Just like New Years eve precedes New Years day. Van Kampen makes no sense here.
Christ will appear on New Years day (DOL) Lords Day … 7th day … after this age is done.
The Lord appears in His Day … the Day of the Lord and not before during this present 6th day age.
Van Kampen>
“strange as that may seem, in light of the fact that Christ’s coming will actually precede the Day of the Lord.”
rapazoe>
STRANGE indeed ! – and also false ! … Just follow what Christ actually taught and NOT Van Kampen. Its clear & not complicated.
No need to be a genius phd to figure it out … just read the scripture vs 29-31. The sequence is this. This is what Jesus said … Do not listen to or follow Van Kampen or other pre-wrath “teachers”.
Again, here is the simple sequence of events as Jesus taught in the Olivet discourse.
1. 29 – sun … moon … stars darkened (Day of the Lord)
2. 30 – Son of Man coming on the Clouds (parousia)
3. 31 – gather together (rapture)
Mat 24:4 Jesus answered them, “Be careful that no one leads you astray.
Mat 24:25 “Behold, I have told you beforehand.
rapazoe> well …. I think im done like dinner
28 sept 2020
I need to correct a comment I made above
rapazoe>
The rapture IS a good thing … the best thing … it is our SALVATION … to be delivered from the tribulation of Satan in this present age and then also delivered from the wrath of God in the next DOL age.
the believer is not delivered from the tribulation of Satan in this present age. The believers salvation is secure if he/she endures to the end. The “end” may be the end of this age OR the end of our life as many martyrs will happen during the tribulation. Just NEVER give up your faith in Jesus!
Rom 5:8-9 But God commends his own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we will be saved from God’s wrath through him.
harpazo 